In this informal and lengthy conversation with the host of the Youtube Channel Transfigured, I explore what the apostle Paul really thought about the human figure of Jesus and Cosmic Salvation. What I present is far removed from Christian tradition and “orthodoxy,” but I lay it out plainly relying solely on what Paul in fact says–not what others have made of him. Paul is at once the most influential and the most misunderstood figure of Western antiquity. What he really said is seldom acknowledged. Be ready for some surprises here. The real Paul is not the hero of Christian orthodoxy or fundamentalism–far from it. I invite you to take a deep dive with me to explore this mystery man I have spent the past 40 years studying, from my Ph.D. thesis to my two latest books on Paul.